podcast

Chapter 77: Jonny Sun on absurd algorithms altering the authenticity of art

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Happy Pink Moon, everybody!

Way back in 2017, I came across a feature article in The New York Times Magazine called “A Whimsical Wordsmith Charts a Course Beyond Twitter.” The article was about MIT PhD student Jonny Sun’s online personality — as a sentimental alien — attracting a huge following online.  

I was like “Okay, this is about the latest viral Instagram influencer and their particular brand of attention seeking behavior.” But as I read the piece, and went deeper into the bio of Jonny Sun, I found myself fascinated. Jonny Sun is a PhD student at MIT looking to understand, in more objective ways, how social media fosters community. His research focuses on how social media content influences the broader world. How meaning is made. How it spreads. How it changes news and culture. As one comedian put it, “He’s like Jane Goodall and we’re the apes.”

Later that year he put out a bestselling book called everyone’s a aliebn when ur a aliebn too and then followed it up by illustrating Lin Manuel Miranda’s book Gmorning Gnight!

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I found myself falling deeper and deeper into the Jonny Sun rabbit hole. There’s a lot there! Jonny is an architect, designer, engineer, artist, playwright, and comedy writer who has written for BoJack Horseman. In fact, we recorded this chapter with him in L.A. currently writing another screen play.

Jonny’s work is across multiple disciplines which broadly addresses the narrative of human experience. His plays have been performed at the Yale School of Drama, Hart House Theatre in Toronto, the Toronto Theatre Lab First Sight Festival and the University of Toronto Drama Festival. His art has been exhibited at Yale University and the University of Toronto.

And, he is the author of a brand new and highly anticipated book called Goodbye, Again: Essays, Reflections & Illustrations. It is a truly wonderful book. Looks simple on the surface but then roller coasters up and down and sideways with obsessive mental insights like Jenny Lawson or David Foster Wallace.

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Jonny’s work has appeared in The New Yorker, McSweeneys, NPR, The New York Times and he’s been on Late Night with Seth Myers. He’s also been named by Times as one of the 25 most influential people on the internet, Forbes has named him one of their 30 under 30 and his TED Talk has nearly four million views.

Are you ready to talk about the culture of productivity, about being on all the time, about therapy and anxiety, about the provocative nature of humor, about succulents and aloe plants, about Dadaism, about competition, about algorithms, and of course about the wonderful Jonny Sun’s 3 most formative books? 

Let’s turn the page into Chapter 77 now…

What You'll Learn:

  • What is a toxic culture of productivity?

  • How do you juggle competing pursuits?

  • What are the additional pressures marginalized people face?

  • How do drama and humor interplay in comedy?

  • How do we stand out in today’s mass media dominated world?

  • What are the tensions between professional and personal ambition?

  • How do social media algorithms work?

  • What is instructional art?

  • What is behavioural simulation?

  • How do you convey deep thought and emotion in short form?

Notable quotes from jonny sun:

“I think of it as a toxic culture of productivity because it is asking us to always be on and asking us to always be producing and any free moment you have is a wasted moment unless you are converting it into some sort of product.” Jonny Sun #3bookspodcast

“I can’t let whatever I’m going to school for kind of erase the wholeness of myself and the fullness of who I am as an individual.” Jonny Sun #3bookspodcast

“You need to be in a box so that other people know how to employ you, or know how to use you or know how you can be useful to them.” Jonny Sun #3bookspodcast

“Marginalized people in general do not get the chance to fail at what they do.” Jonny Sun #3bookspodcast

“There is a sort of professional or productivity based ambition for your work and then there is a personal ambition and I feel like those don’t speak to each other.” Jonny Sun #3bookspodcast

“We are constantly driven socially to not have time for deep reading” Jonny Sun #3bookspodcast

“It’s easy to scoff at something that feels light, but the joy I get from writing the stuff that I do is that it is like a trick trojan horse. You think it is light but I thought deeply on it and hopefully it kind of elicits deeper thought within you.” Jonny Sun #3bookspodcast

Connect with jonny:

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Chapter 76: Jenny Lawson on dark dollhouses delivering a door from depression

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Do you suffer from anxiety disorder? Depression? Intrusive thoughts? Obsessive compulsive disorder? Voluntary hair pulling? Avoidant personality disorder? Any of the above?

Well, Jenny Lawson suffers from all of the above. Tuberculosis too, according to her wonderful new book. It’s an overwhelming way to live and only partly cured by being a global community leader for mental health through her wonderful blog (thebloggess.com), her millions of followers, and her indie bookshop Nowhere Bookshop down in San Antonio, Texas.

Does Jenny Lawson do podcasts? Interviews? No, not really. She tells us at the beginning of the chat that she loves 3 Books so much that she wanted to come — lucky us, as 3 Bookers have been asking for this interview for years! — and she made herself cozy by calling me up from under her desk, in cozy clothes, post-beta-blockers, and with Hunter S. Tomcat providing animal therapy throughout.

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Jenny is funny, crass, smart, and openhearted. She’s struck a deep chord with her books Let’s Pretend This Never Happened, Furiously Happy, You Are Here, and Broken. (All, I should mention, with the wonderful Amy Einhorn who’s edited four of my books, too!)

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Jenny and I talk about what a good editor does, reading in the freezer, stealing Stephen King, dollhouse therapy, mental health toolkits, LSD, what your kids will actually remember about you as a parent, and of course, Jenny’s 3 most formative books.

Jenny is gracious and disarmingly truthful and she doesn’t want her pain to go to waste. She is a beaming voice the world needs more of and today I am just so privileged to help her do just that.

Let’s flip the page into Chapter 76 …

What You'll Learn:

  • What does an editor do?

  • How do you read horror books when you have anxiety?

  • How do you open a bookshop?

  • What is reading guilt?

  • How can ketamine treat depression?

  • How can we cultivate self care and self awareness if we have anxiety?

  • What are intrusive thoughts?

  • How does depression lie?

  • What is a mental health toolkit?

  • What is dollhouse therapy?

  • How can we talk to our kids about mental illness?

Notable quotes from jenny lawson:

“Booksellers and librarians are like wizards delivering spells that are going to change your mind.” Jenny Lawson #3bookspodcast

“I have been saved over and over again by this community of people who are saying it is ok to be flawed and broken.” Jenny Lawson #3bookspodcast

“I work really well with things where I can let my hands do one thing and my brain can go off in another direction.” Jenny Lawson #3bookspodcast

“Having small things that you have complete control over is really helpful.” Jenny Lawson #3bookspodcast

“Don’t let your pain go to waste.” Jenny Lawson #3bookspodcast

“Read things you are uncomfortable with because that’s how you grow.” Jenny Lawson #3bookspodcast

“There is no such thing as a book which is not worthwhile as long as you find joy in it.” Jenny Lawson #3bookspodcast

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Chapter 75: George Saunders offers lessons on living a luminous life

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“An astoundingly tuned voice, telling just the kind of stories we need to get us through these times.” Thomas Pynchon

“Not since Mark Twain has America produced a satirist this funny.” Zadie Smith

“George Saunders makes you feel as if you are reading fiction for the first time.” Khaled Hosseini

I could keep going and going with other literary all-stars lining up to praise George Saunders but my favorite quote about George’s writing comes from Ben Marcus in The Believer back in 2004:

“The Suits call his writing ‘stories,’ but they are really soft bodies to wear for a larger experience of life, hollowcore person-shapes that one can slip on in order to attain amazement. Saunders writes bodies, and his readers wear them.”

Yes! That’s how I feel, too. Which is what made it such an immense pleasure to sit down with the humble genius that is George Saunders. Don’t take the genius label from me! He’s won a MacArthur Genius Grant, Guggenheim Fellowship, PEN/Malamud Prize and been named to Time’s 100 Most Influential People.

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He won the Man Booker for the mesmerizing otherworldly masterpiece Lincoln in the Bardo, and every time I read his short story collections Pastoralia and Tenth of December they just crack my heart wide open. And, just to extend the literary resume here, his most recent book A Swim in the Pond in the Rain is simply the best book on writing I have ever read. I highly recommend it to all writers.

George Saunders has also been a Professor in Creative Writing at Syracuse University since 1997. Cheryl Strayed, our guest in Chapter 69, is one of hundreds who had George as a teacher and calls him a mentor today.

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Please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation discussing the computer we are all trapped inside, reading as a life project, how we process reality, practicing Buddhism, the world as a corrective force, delivering payoff, staying grounded, cultivating a love of literature in children, harnessing our shadow selves, quieting mental rumination, aiming our spigots, and much, much more … .

The wisdom of George Saunders offers a true masterclass on writing, on living, on life.

Let’s flip the page into Chapter 75 …

What You'll Learn:

  • How does our brain process reality?

  • How do writers justify the non-normative and guarantee pay off?

  • How does death amplify life?

  • What is efficiency in writing?

  • How should we stay grounded despite success?

  • How should we think about kindness?

  • What can we learn from Buddhism?

  • How can parents cultivate a love of literature in their kids?

  • How can we channel our different mental states to be creative?

  • How does exploring one’s dark side or subconscious impact one’s writing?

  • How can we learn to live more freely?

Notable quotes from George saunders:

“When I read a good story, I always just feel a little more awake to things, a little more involved, a little more enthusiastic about the whole project of being alive.” George Saunders #3bookspodcast

“Part of the challenge of being a full person is to be aware of the computer you’re trapped inside of.” George Saunders #3bookspodcast

“A good story isn’t flawless, it doesn't fail to offend or discomfort the reader; it offends, discomforts, thrills and then capitalizes on that.” George Saunders #3bookspodcast

“The reading project is a life project.” George Saunders #3bookspodcast

“At the best level, being an artist has something to do with cultivating one’s ability to stay attentive.” George Saunders #3bookspodcast

“The way your parents make you feel as a kid is the way that you then assume the universe must be.” George Saunders #3bookspodcast

“You’re inside a temporary phenomenon that has tendencies.” George Saunders #3bookspodcast

“The world is corrective.” George Saunders #3bookspodcast

“When you are writing a story, you’re not actually proving how amazing you are, or how dark, you’re just proving that you can make a coherent text that draws people in and isn’t irrelevant to the business of being alive.” George Saunders #3bookspodcast

“If you can nurture in yourself a lot of discernment, taste about what you like to see in your prose and then let that come out through revision, that’s kind of this amazing superpower because you never are held captive by the first draft.” George Saunders #3bookspodcast

“You never really fail until you quit.” George Saunders #3bookspodcast

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Chapter 74: Kanmani Guruswami the Midwife on countering colonialism with compassionate care

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Leslie and I welcomed a baby boy into the world just a few weeks ago.   

Like our other three sons, he was sheparded into the world by Kanmani Guruswami and her incredible team of midwives at Kensington Midwives in downtown Toronto. Kanmani has become a guide for Leslie and me — supporting us physically, emotionally, and spiritually on our parenthood journey. Not only is she a veteran midwife, heading up the Kensington Midwives clinic, but she’s also a passionate activist who tirelessly focuses her energies towards making the world a kinder, more inclusive, and more empathetic place. 

What do I mean?

You’ll hear it in seconds.

Born in Calgary to her Tamil-speaking engineer father from Tamil Nadu, India and her mathematician mother from Switzerland, Kanmani is the product of their hard work ethic and their struggles navigating many degrees of colonization and assimilation. Kanmani chose midwifery as a career path while assisting with home births in Vancouver and now for the past twenty years, her midwife clinic has assisted indigenous and settler Canadians. 

I confess I knew nothing about midwifery a few years ago. Less than nothing! Less than less than nothing! But as I’ve been exposed to the work they do, I’ve come to believe it is truly critical and transformational to both families and broader society. I believe the work of midwives needs to be discussed, debated, and celebrated.

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DowntownToronto streetcar

So Kanmani and I hung out on my couch in full PPE and masks right as she was finishing up an appointment with Leslie and my two-week-old son. We discuss things like: delivering versus catching, people of the global majority, what exactly midwives do, who exactly is a settler, the invisible effects of colonization, racism in health care, the magic of childbirth, and, of course, Jughead Jones.

Kanmani Guruswami is a local hero whose voice, stories, wisdom, and humanity should be amplified. So let’s amplify it! I hope her love and wisdom ripples deeply into your heart as it does to mine. 

And now let’s flip the page into Chapter 74 …

What You'll Learn:

  • What is a midwife?

  • What are the trends around midwifery versus physician care?

  • What are the values underpinning midwife care?

  • What is assimilation?

  • What is the significance of the phrase: people of the global majority?

  • What is the Truth and Reconciliation movement?

  • What is cultural competence training?

  • What are some of the less discussed effects of colonization?

  • What does it mean to be ‘a Jughead’?

  • What is The Farm?

  • What is an ambivalent baby?

  • What holistic approaches do midwives bring to the magic of birthing a child?

Notable quotes from Kanmani Guruswami the Midwife:

“A midwife is your guide, your navigator, through the experience of transitioning from not having children to having children.” - Kanmani the Midwife #3bookspodcast

“We need to do our own education on racism. Black people should not have to tell me what happened to them.” - Kanmani the Midwife #3bookspodcast

“An animal doesn’t give birth unless they feel safe and cared for.” - Kanmani the Midwife #3bookspodcast

“If it was all based on this child feeling held and received by their community and their family, what difference would that make in the whole society that we live in?” - Kanmani the Midwife #3bookspodcast

“We set ourselves up for difficult parenting situations and difficult family dynamics the way we do birth in a hospital with interventions being so prevalent.” - Kanmani the Midwife #3bookspodcast

Connect with Kanmani:

  • Website

  • Email - kmw@kensingtonmidwives.ca (Note: She is not “all over social media” so she’s given us permission to share this email address with you. Drop her a line with your feedback on our chat!)

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Chapter 73: Humble The Poet cries crusade but cautions courting controversy

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Do you miss coffee shops?

The clatter, the din, the pshh-pshh of the espresso machine. The cacophony of music and typing and magnetic sense of connection with strangers. I miss the belonging. I miss the community.

One of my favourite coffee shops is inside the Centre for Social Innovation in downtown Toronto where 3 Bookers will remember I vowed to record a future chapter while cruising by in David Sedaris’ limo back in Chapter 18. Well, the podcast gods worked their magic and I was lucky to find myself there months later in the company of the wonderful Humble the Poet. 

Truth be told, I’ve kept this chapter on ice for a while since it was recorded pre-masks, pre-lockdown. I kept thinking normalcy would return and then the pandemic dragged on and on and on and I grudgingly switched to virtual recordings. But now I need that coffee shop! So here is the last live and in-person recording of 3 Books I’ve got for you for a while. (Insert tear emoji here)

The Centre for Social Innovation Toronto

The Centre for Social Innovation Toronto

Do you know Humble the Poet?

He’s an electric and creative polymath, rapper, poet, spoken word artist, best selling author of Unlearn and Things No One Else Can Teach Us, Lollapalooza performer, former elementary school teacher, and a wildly popular blogger at humblethepoet.com with over 100,000 readers. Oh, and did I mention more than a million people follow him across social media @humblethepoet.

Perceptive, inquisitive, and putting out a vibe that captures hearts and minds, Humble defies easy stereotypes. I might even say he shatters them.

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We dive deep into his activism and how he develops courage to brave the wilderness and be so unafraid to challenge mainstream consensus by shedding light on Indian farmers or the Colin Kaepernicks of the world far before doing so becomes en vogue. We discuss how mainstream media preys on our biology and why controversy hooks our attention. We chat about the counterintuitive value of obscurity and how to stand out in a global village of sameness. And, of course, we discuss Humble the Poet’s 3 most formative books. 

I am grateful to share this conversation with this incredible human being while getting an aural dose of coffee shop community at the same time. Wherever you are right now, whatever you’re doing right now, I encourage you to flop down on the green couch beside the radiator. I’ll be in your left ear, Humble will be in your right ear, and let’s hang out.

Can I get you a cappuccino?

What You'll Learn:

  • Why should we explore and push the boundaries on unpopular stances?

  • How do we find the courage to stand up for injustice?

  • How should we pick causes to defend?

  • What are the tensions between science and religion?

  • How do we figure out what to trust?

  • Why is controversy not sustainable?

  • Why should there be no shame in liking short books?

  • What is the balance between authenticity and curation on social media?

  • What are the dangers of geolocation?

  • How do we stand out in a world of sameness?

  • How do we navigate the pull of followers on social media?

  • Why should we always ask before we post?

Notable quotes from HUMBLE THE POET:

“Are you contributing if you’re just regurgitating what everyone else is saying?” - Humble The Poet #3bookspodcast

“For me it was never about having the balls to say things — it was just like I learned some things and I can’t operate the same way I used to operate now that I know these things.” - Humble The Poet #3bookspodcast

"If the news ain’t boring, then it ain’t news.” - Humble The Poet #3bookspodcast

“Controversy and drama have always existed and it’s potato chips. It’s addictive. You have one you want more, but it’s not sustainable.” - Humble The Poet #3bookspodcast

“The only sustainable way to do anything, (whether you’re a writer, painter, dancer, CEO or banker), is to focus on how you are adding value to other people’s lives.” - Humble The Poet #3bookspodcast

“Secretly, underneath the surface, we’re chasing validation, we’re chasing significance, we’re chasing attention and we’ll make decisions accordingly.” - Humble The Poet #3bookspodcast

“The only way to really add value to the world is by sharing your unique self and not fitting in.” - Humble The Poet #3bookspodcast

“Focus on providing value to yourself and do it because you love doing it.” - Humble The Poet #3bookspodcast

“Value your obscurity.” - Humble The Poet #3bookspodcast

“It doesn’t get harder when things don’t work out, it gets harder when things exceed expectations.” - Humble The Poet #3bookspodcast

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Chapter 72: Adam Grant frowns on feeble feminism from fearmongering fellows

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Picture this: You’re a brand new professor two years into a teaching career at an illustrious university and feedback on you as a professor is … terrible. Sorry! But you’re told you suck. By lots of students. Again and again.

How would you process that? Cry? Crawl into a hole somewhere and curl up in the fetal position while sucking your thumb? That’s what I would do! That’s actually what I did do, frankly, in my first job ever at Procter & Gamble. They told me I sucked so I quit and ran away before I got fired.

But Adam Grant? No. He leaned into the feedback. He designed new surveys to get richer feedback. He asked other professors if he could take on more teaching classes. He basically triangulated and solved for the question: what makes a good professor?

Impressive right? Well, he’s been voted the most popular professor for seven straight years so I’d say so.

I had heard this story about Adam before I interviewed him and it made me even more curious about what makes this guy tick.

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He seemingly does everything.

He has a popular podcast with TED called WorkLife which is wonderful if you’re a student of organizational psychology, organizational behavior, or becoming a better leader. 

Oh, and how about his books? Every time Adam Grant pens a new book it shoots straight to the top of The New York Times bestseller list and sort of just roosts there for months. Give and Take, Originals, Option B (with Sheryl Sandberg), and now Think Again which I’ve loved reading.

In Think Again Adam says we must redefine intelligence, not just as the ability to think and learn, but rather embrace rethinking and unlearning. Rejecting the comfort of conviction for the discomfort of doubt allows us to widen our definition of what real intelligence is and widen the aperture of our minds. 

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Adam was good enough to dial me up from Philadelphia where he lives with his wife Allison and his three children. Since I did the interview literally hours after Leslie welcomed our new son into the world, I was a bit brain-jumbled. But we end up having a wonderful chat about parenting and balancing ambition versus contentment, along all the less visible sides of life. We also talk about feminism, humility, work life balance, and of course, Adam’s 3 most formative books.

So 3 Bookers! Stuff the earbuds in and fill up the sudsy sink, grab the leash for a long early-morning walk, or come hang out with Adam and me on a late night driveway chat…

Are you ready to turn the page to Chapter 72?

Let’s go!

What You'll Learn:

  • What are some elements of parenting intentionally?

  • How can busy couples think about sharing work?

  • What is Adam’s view on the state of feminism?

  • What is some low-hanging structural / systemic fruit when it comes to fighting misogyny?

  • What is The Daughter Effect?

  • What are some specific tools Adam uses to help practice humility?

  • What is ‘the curiosity gap’?

  • What does healthy ambition look like?

  • What is the meaning of life? (Yes, really)

Notable quotes from Adam Grant:

“I don’t think we should be sharing our responsibilities equally, I think we should be sharing them equitably.” - Adam Grant #3bookspodcast

“There is something about having a daughter if you’re a man that leads you to worry much more about how the world is going to treat her and what her place is going to be. But I also just got fed up with that effect. You couldn’t care about your wife, or your mom, or your sister, or any other woman you ever met!” - Adam Grant #3bookspodcast

“When we are considering people for jobs and promotions we often just start by evaluating the candidates and it’s too easy to find a reason to not bet on someone who doesn’t look like, or remind you of, someone who has been in that role before.” - Adam Grant #3bookspodcast

“I think humility is a perception that exists in the eye of the beholder.” - Adam Grant #3bookspodcast

“We shouldn’t see confidence and humility at opposite ends of the seesaw, they’re actually most powerful in combination.” - Adam Grant #3bookspodcast

Connect with Adam:

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Chapter 71: Shirley the Nurse on hurting with homelessness and healing with heart

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So I pull into the gas station to fill up my van and a car starts honking and keeps honking and keeps honking and keeps honking and keeps honking and I open my door and I look behind me and a woman opens her door and suddenly screams “MOVE YOUR CAR!!!”

And then I go “But I’m getting gas?” and then she goes “BUT YOU PARKED IN FRONT OF ME!!!” and then I go “Because I’m getting gas?” and then she goes “BUT YOU COULD HAVE PARKED THERE!” and then I go “But my tank is on this side?” and then she goes “BUT YOU SAW ME RIGHT HERE!!!” and then I go “DOES YOUR CAR GO BACKWARDS???” and then right as things are sizzling up and it feels like I’m about to get smacked in the forehead with a squeegee another woman walks between us and says “YOU DON’T GOTTA LISTEN TO HER!!!”

It was enough to cut the tension and help me give my head a shake. The situation simmered down and melted away as she reversed out and I was left standing there, filling up my tank, thinking about how we are all too wound up right now. Tension is high. Pandemic is wearing. We don’t need to yell at each other at gas stations! We need to give each other space to feel what we’re feeling and try to help each other along the way.

Right? I think? Something like that?

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I was feeling bad about not being more compassionate when my public defender walked by me again. I said thank you and we exchanged big exaggerated eye-smiles and I got a sudden feeling that there was a little connection right here, right now. So I told her I talk to people about formative books and asked if she wanted to chat. Her reply? “HELL YEAH!” So we drove our cars across the street, I hit record on my phone, and we ended up laughing, crying, and connecting over the highs and lows of life, in just a few minutes, as two complete strangers.

How did it happen? I don’t know. I can’t explain it! But I think this guerrilla chapter of 3 Books will stick with you for a long time.

Get ready to discuss how it feels to lose everything, how it feels to suddenly be homeless with only your children and a stack of books at your side, and how it feels to be Black and raise Black children in the world today.

Get ready to meet a woman you will not soon forget.

Get ready to meet the incredible Shirley the Nurse aka Shirley Davis.

It is time for another guerrilla chapter of 3 Books.

Let’s go!

What You'll Learn:

  • What does a day in the life of a critical care worker in remote regions look like?

  • How do we encourage young people to ask questions?

  • How did a single mother turn her kids lives around with books?

  • How does it feel to raise Black children in the world today?

  • How can language help defuse stressful situations?

  • What is the value of unconditional love?

Notable quotes from Shirley the nurse:

“The color of my skin does not determine what I can or cannot do.” – Shirley the Nurse #3bookspodcast

“All we had were books.” – Shirley the Nurse #3bookspodcast 

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Chapter 70: Brené Brown on building boundaries and the beacon of bell

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Leslie and I had just started dating when she sent me a short clip of Brené Brown explaining the difference between empathy and sympathy. Empathy is climbing down into the hole with somebody and saying “Hey, I know what it’s like down here, and you’re not alone.” Sympathy is poking your head in the top of the hole and saying “Ooo! It’s bad, uh-huh!” Brené’s simple-sounding words created such a profound paradigm shift that we still use the line “Come down to the hole with me” in our relationship when we’re looking for deeper understanding (i.e., trying to get out of a fight.)

That clip was the beginning of Brené’s incredible work entering our marriage. When we found out we were going to have a baby Leslie printed out her Parenting Manifesto and put it up on our wall. Leslie took Brené’s Kitchen Table Parenting Classes and we sat together watching her viral TED Talks, The Power of Vulnerability and Listening to Shame. I gave Leslie a copy of Daring Greatly on the day she gave a speech to her old high school and I was lucky to see Brené give a talk at a conference full of A-listers where hers was the only talk punctuated throughout the speech with standing ovation after standing ovation.

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Her wisdom may sound simple but it just hits you like a ton of bricks. Many of her lessons have themselves become tendons in our relationship including the phrase, “The story I’m telling myself is…” which we use to navigate tough conversations and not lay blame.

Her #1 New York Times bestsellers Daring Greatly, The Gifts of Imperfection, Braving the Wilderness, Rising Strong and Dare to Lead grace our shelves and often lie beside our bed. We turn to them again and again. We loved her Netflix special The Call to Courage and her hit podcasts — yes, plural! — Unlocking Us and Dare to Lead featuring a lot of no-name guests like President Barack Obama, Dolly Parton, and President-Elect Joe Biden. I mean: come on!

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Brené is a North Star to so many.

Teachers, CEOs, movie stars, Oprah, and even Prince Harry and Meghan Markle are amongst her legion of fans. She is doing so much good in a world full of anxiety, grief, misunderstanding and miscommunication.

She is the beacon we all need.

It was a huge privilege to sit down and interview Brené together with my wife Leslie. We loved this intimate and wide-ranging conversation discussing questions like: How do we truly honor our partners? What is the value of ordinary moments? How do we actually operationalize love? How do we build and maintain boundaries? How do we become ‘less sweet and more kind’? And, of course, what are Brené Brown’s 3 most formative books?

Are you ready? Please sit back and enjoy Chapter 70 with the one and only … Brené Brown.

Let’s go!

What You'll Learn:

  • How do we make time for friends?

  • How do we find contentment within our sphere of influence?

  • What does it mean to be spiritually fit?

  • How do we build and maintain boundaries?

  • How do we become “less sweet and more kind”?

  • How can a classroom be transformed into a sacred space?

  • What does it take to be a great teacher?

  • What is meant by the phrase “education as the practice of freedom”?

  • How can we better train teachers to be agents of change?

  • What is a love ethic?

  • What is a pandemic of lovelessness?

  • How can we learn to love?

Notable quotes from Brené Brown:

“We take ordinary moments for granted bc we are so busy chasing down extraordinary moments to just performatively show these moments for validation.” - Brené Brown #3bookspodcast

“I vowed to never take ordinary moments for granted; if I start taking photos and sharing and checking for likes, then I have squandered this moment that is actually the fuel for my life.” - Brené Brown #3bookspodcast

“What does it mean for me to be spiritually fit? It means is a very robust gratitude practice; alone time; acting out my love for the people in my life and not just professing it; it means getting a handle on my anger and blaming.” - Brené Brown #3bookspodcast

“I have become less sweet and more kind.” - Brené Brown #3bookspodcast

“Wholeheartedness is like the North star. You’ll never get there but you’ll know if you are heading in the right direction.” - Brené Brown #3bookspodcast

“Inspired by bell hooks, I made a sign saying, If They’re Comfortable, You’re Not Teaching.” - Brené Brown #3bookspodcast

“If all work at its foundation is not anti racist, anti sexist, liberation work, then I don’t think teaching can happen.” - Brené Brown #3bookspodcast

“There are teachers that are agents of control and teachers that are agents of change.” - Brené Brown #3bookspodcast

How do we operationalize love because professing it is so easy and so cheap.” - Brené Brown #3bookspodcast

CONNECT WITH Brené:

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Resources Mentioned:

 
 
 
 
 
 

Chapter 69: Cheryl Strayed on forging fearlessness and fracturing facades

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I am so delighted to close out 2020 with the magical wisdom of the one and only … Cheryl Strayed.

Cheryl is the New York Times bestselling author of Wild, the Oprah’s Book Club pick turned blockbuster film starring Reese Witherspoon, Brave Enough, a collection of raw and unflinchingly brave quotes, and Torch, her award-winning debut novel.

And then there’s my personal favorite! The Dear Sugar Column she wrote for years in The Rumpus literary magazine where she navigated the deep tissue of the human experience through raw and honest advice under the pseudonym Sugar. Since the letters were also written under pseudonym it’s an exquisite portrait of anonymous loving beating hearts of humanity connecting with no names and no faces — just riding the waves of life together. Cheryl’s bestselling book Tiny Beautiful Things is a magnificent compilation from the column that spawned the hit podcasts Dear Sugars and Sugar Calling.

How did Cheryl gain such deep perception of the human experience? 

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Is it through the abuse she discusses suffering as a child and her upbringing in “the boondocks” of Minnesota in a house her family built without electricity or plumbing? Was it through the sudden death of her mother Bobbi while she was in her senior year and the famed walk she took afterwards up the Pacific Crest Trail? Was it the MA in Fine Arts she got from Syracuse where she was mentored by George Saunders? Or is it simply the sum total of her incredible perception on top of the varied experiences she’s had through jobs as waitress, youth advocate, political organizer, activist, and even emergency medical technician? 

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All I know is Cheryl is a singular, lyrical, big-hearted voice who never shies away from the deep questions. In this conversation we discuss things like: How do we deal with grief? How do we live objectively in a subjective world? How should we think about meeting our heroes? What is the power of community and connection? How do we write with vulnerability?

And of course, what are the eminent Cheryl Strayed’s … 3 most formative books?

Let’s go! 

What You'll Learn:

  • What is the double standard when it comes to men and women’s appearances?

  • Why do we not use the term “working dad”?

  • How are books a portal?

  • How can books break down facades?

  • How do we turn grief into beauty?

  • What is objective reality?

  • How should we think about space?

  • How can people work to understand white privilege and complicity?

  • How can community transcend political differences?

  • How can we learn to write with vulnerability?

  • What is your story to tell and what isn’t and why are you telling it?

  • And, of course, what are Cheryl Strayed’s 3 most formative books?

Notable quotes from Cheryl Strayed:

“There is yes in the optimistic sense and there is yes in the recognition sense.” Cheryl Strayed #3bookspodcast

“Men need to wake-up and play a part in making change and women need to work on combating those internalized messages that we’ve received all of our lives, that we’ve been steeped in all of our lives.” Cheryl Strayed #3bookspodcast

“Books are the only place where we actually get to inhabit another person’s mind.” Cheryl Strayed #3bookspodcast

“I’m interested in the emotional terrain, that’s the geography of my intellectual and artistic curiosity.” Cheryl Strayed #3bookspodcast

“Tears are like laughter; they come to us and then they float away.” Cheryl Strayed #3bookspodcast

“I don’t want to know how you are, I want to know how you are really. I don’t want to know who you are, I want to know who you are really.” Cheryl Strayed #3bookspodcast

“I do think that almost always when we are searching for the truth within ourselves that we know what the truth is and we have to be brave enough to hold it, to know it, to accept it.” Cheryl Strayed #3bookspodcast

“When you are forced to relate to people who you don’t have things in common with, it can be a mind expanding experience.” Cheryl Strayed #3bookspodcast

CONNECT WITH Cheryl:

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Resources Mentioned:

 
 
 
 
 
 

Best of 3 Books podcast 2020

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Happy winter solstice! Happy summer solstice!

If you’re in the northern hemisphere, we are tilted farther away from the sun today compared to any other day of the year. The darkest of dark days! But if you’re in the southern hemisphere, you are officially tilted closer to the sun than any other day of the year. The brightest of bright days!

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Do you feel a bit tilted right now? I know I do. It has been a wild year from almost any perspective. And the tiltiest of days seemed like the perfect time to drop our third annual “Best Of” special episode of 3 Books.

I went back and listened to every conversation we had this year and picked out highlights I thought would provoke, stimulate, and challenge us. We sat down with so many inspiring people including Rich Roll, Dr. Laura Markham, Wagner Moura, Roxane Gay, Dr. Andrea Sereda, Derek Forgie, Temple Grandin, David Mitchell, Surgeon General Vivek Murthy and many, many more…

I hope this patchwork quilt conversation serves to both help us reflect on the year that was and help us set intentions for the year that will be. We have been through a lot. Grab a blanket and a cup of tea, settle in for a long drive, strap on some boots and let’s enjoy some time together now…

I really love having this conversation with you.

 
 
 
 
 
 

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